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Poster: patkelleyPA Date: Jan 3, 2009 12:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: I can't stand "reversed" SBDs!!!

One of my oldest pet peeves, and one that has recently really given me trouble, is SBD recordings on which the the lineup is somehow flipped. In other words, you hear Phil and Bob and Kreutzmann out of the right side, and Garcia and Mickey and the keyboardist on the left. I am, of course, referring to shows after 81 or 82, when the lineup changed to its "current" version.

This absolutely ruins a recording for me. While it's true that it's easy to switch headphones, it's not so easy to switch speaker inputs, and I like to rock out on the stereo sometimes.

Does this bother anyone else? A good example of this phenomena is on this recording which, other than the "reversal," is unreal. But for me, it's ruined and I will never listen to again.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1988-06-30.sbd-set2.skankweed.finney.6670.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: Rings&Bells Date: Jan 3, 2009 1:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

I guess I've been listening with my headphones flipped because I always thought that Jerry was supposed to be on the left; that's how I've always decided which one of my unlabeled headphones was right and left.

I've noticed, that at least on Garcia Plays Dylan, Jerry is in the opposite channel for Jerry Band tunes than he is in for GD.

This post was modified by Rings&Bells on 2009-01-03 21:16:40

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Poster: caspersvapors Date: Jan 3, 2009 1:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

it depends on the years.


prior to about 81 or so, Jerry was usually on the left side of the stage. after that he was on the right side next to brent

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jan 3, 2009 1:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

here's a pet peeve...the files that have dropouts, taper f-ups and anomolies not generated by the band
God sakes! thats why i got audacity, to clean up obvious crap the person who upped the show did not. "oh man, you HAVE to be true to the source" poppycock!
And since I burn to CD, I also put in fades-where needed, between CD's, thus polluting those FINE source's [insert sarcasm]
oh the horror!

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Poster: wonsing Date: Jan 3, 2009 6:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

I always like Pig up front... Rasta you may like this one > http://www.archive.org/details/poppycock_1966

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Poster: caspersvapors Date: Jan 3, 2009 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

i prefer jerry on the right as well

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Poster: barongsong Date: Jan 3, 2009 6:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

So does this mean you don't listen to anything past 81? Can't say that I mind either way as long as the recording is crisp.
Cheers

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Poster: patkelleyPA Date: Jan 4, 2009 6:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

No, I actually listen almost exclusively to 80s and 90s shows, when the lineup from left to right was phil, bob, garcia, and brent or vince, with the drummers in the sam position as always. That's why recordings that have them reversed bug me.

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Poster: barongsong Date: Jan 4, 2009 9:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

Oh I see my dyslexia was getting the best of me again. I wonder if this recording was made for one of the band members who would of course be turned around and used to hearing it that way.

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Poster: Solo Head Date: Jan 4, 2009 9:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

........Are you fucking kidding me.....

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Poster: barongsong Date: Jan 5, 2009 12:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

Yes, well sort of, it was meant as a goof, but I guess I shoulda said one of the front security guys since the band would be listening out of the monitors in front of them I suppose.

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Poster: cringle Date: Jan 5, 2009 1:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

I wouldn't mind a reversed SBD if it meant Bobby was the opposite of front & center

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Jan 3, 2009 1:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

The worst is when the mix pans one of the band's instruments, like Jerry's guitar from one channel to another. It's kind of like I-gor's hump in the movie Young Frankenstein.. "wasn't that hump on the other side yesterday?" "What hump?"

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Poster: Rings&Bells Date: Jan 3, 2009 2:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

Sort of on that note, does anyone know why during the MLB jam on DP19 that Jerry's guitar briefly goes from left to middle to right back to left again? Did he actually move across the stage or was that something that was added during production?

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Jan 3, 2009 2:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

It's not a matter of "if Jerry moved" or not. His stack of amplifiers is stationary. The effect is someone "panning" the mix. It could be the recordist making a "rough mix" and getting the placement where they want it. Just a guess.. any engineers here would give a better answer.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Jan 3, 2009 2:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

Interesting phenomena. A lot of the post "Wall of Sound" shows had crane hoisted 180 degree speaker assemblies above center stage and theoretically nobody would be panned hard left or hard right to get a proper house mix. There were typically columns stage left and right, but they normally handled the subs which are not directional to the ear. In this case, the output would be fairly mono in nature.

So, with the equipment the band was using there were probably multiple sub mixes and outputs for different purposes. One for stage mix and monitoring, one for the house and one for the tape-out. The tape out was most likely the only source set up with hard panning to emulate stereo. With this source going to a multi-track machine, even panning wasn't necessary at the show, true stereo could be accomplished in the studio with a later mix.

I'm not sure of the tape or tapers setup, but it's surely possible that the lines out from the board could have been switched or connected backwards. I've read about cases where the sides have been swapped and it results in some kind of out of phase quality. The remedy is to re-swap it back into normalcy and the effect disappears.

But being a 70's person, Jerry's always at home hard left.



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Poster: He Live's Date: Jan 3, 2009 7:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

that was good... thanks. now i don't have to think about it. i agree with EBP.

and RASTAMON too.... a tape is a tape is a tape.... it is about your own mix now. and like RINGS said -- just turn your headphones around.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jan 3, 2009 2:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

pretend you're twirling

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Jan 3, 2009 4:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

Load track in Wavosaur, invert channels, save it, done.

http://www.wavosaur.com/

I like to mix drums and stereo piano from the stage side perspective as do some major record producers so you might find other songs you might like from the crowd side as well. Might as well normalize and roll off tape hiss and microphone noise while at it.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jan 3, 2009 5:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

hey NC, can that application "weld" or merge 2 wav files together?
I've been looking for something that can do that

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Jan 3, 2009 5:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

You can do this quite easily with Foobar 2000. Just import the files into Foobar, highlight them, right click on them and choose the option convert and convert to single file. It is really easy and you can do it for flac,wav, or shn files. I do it sometimes for shows that have one song thst is tracked with a bunch of subsections, like "drums", "drums 2", "jam", "bass solo" when its really just one song, but tracked with 4 or 5 different sections.

This post was modified by SkyDawg on 2009-01-04 01:48:05

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jan 3, 2009 5:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

thanks for the info

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Poster: NoiseCollector Date: Jan 3, 2009 5:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

I am sure it can, but you would have to do it all manually, you might try this:

http://www.sonicspot.com/wavglue/wavglue.html

It's free but probably is limited to 16 bit wavs judging by it's age.

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Poster: Agent 86 Date: Jan 3, 2009 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

Hmm, turn around and face the other direction. Then Jerry will be in your right ear.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Jan 3, 2009 1:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I can't stand 'reversed' SBDs!!!

...and stand on yo head! i wonder if Bear was causing some of that- also messin with the tapers

This post was modified by rastamon on 2009-01-03 21:34:18